Arelith

A feat that is stated that is worse than another feat the classes get with a feat tax of two additional feats would cause most people to get the better performing feat.

Planar Conduit and Mummy's dust both cost one feat. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I have enough spreadsheets at my job. My fun time I play simple. If it is simpler and more fun to play a cast which summons, and I can help my friends I'll do it. The more restrictive this feat (which exists to stop a gap in a class and provides an alternatives) is by requiring several feats to work the less likely it will be used.

Elemental avatar is really, really good.

There's an argument for "But planar conduit / Mummy dust only cost one feat!" which is generally true but fantastically there's a direct comparison that can be drawn between those two feats and the proposed transmutation benefit to Elemental Avatar.

Mummy dust summons undead that are directly improved by necromancy feats.
Planar conduit summons outsiders that are directly improved by conjuration feats.

You don't -need- ESF necromancy or ESF conjuration for those feats to work, they're just a bonus if you'd like to focus specifically on making your summons stronger.

You don't -need- ESF transmutation to get the most out of Elemental Avatar if the proposed change goes through, it's just a nice bonus if you'd like it.

Elemental Avatar in it's current state is actually really very good, the trade offs are strictly worse from a mechanical stand point but the benefit of allowing for a playstyle that doesn't rely entirely on summons is a great option for people who are exhausted by the summon centric meta we had for years.

AstralUniverse wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 27, 2024 6:20 am

Doubling down on something that's already more valuable to the class than other things just means it becomes a feat tax.

I'd like your definition of feat tax because in my mind it would be;
A feat you pay for that provides no significant benifit but for something else as a prerequisite.

If that you mean its mandatory then we disagree
If you mean that its objectively worse then sure I'd agree with you.
I'm not seeing it in this light as a tax personally

Planar Conduit and Mummy Dust are much better for PvE, no doubt.
Elemental Avatar better for PvP.

Neither is a feat tax, you can live without either, just means you are putting more importance into one aspect. You can even have both, my current character does. I use Planar Conduit for PvE and opening PvP, and when the summons are WoF'd or no longer useful I turn on Elemental Avatar.

Ruzuke wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:41 am

A feat that is stated that is worse than another feat the classes get with a feat tax of two additional feats would cause most people to get the better performing feat.

Planar Conduit and Mummy's dust both cost one feat. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I have enough spreadsheets at my job. My fun time I play simple. If it is simpler and more fun to play a cast which summons, and I can help my friends I'll do it. The more restrictive this feat (which exists to stop a gap in a class and provides an alternatives) is by requiring several feats to work the less likely it will be used.

You know there are cleric paths that disable summoning? And for them, EA is actually just a strict upgrade(mostly)?

Even then, there is nothing saying that transmutation would be required by this proposed update. It improves your EA, if you have it, but it's not strong enough on its own to make it essential for the build to function.

It still will give AC. It still gives damage on hit. It still gives regen. It still gives DR. It is functional regardless, and will still be taken whether anything else boosts it or not.

Kythana wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 27, 2024 8:54 pm

Ruzuke wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:41 am

A feat that is stated that is worse than another feat the classes get with a feat tax of two additional feats would cause most people to get the better performing feat.

Planar Conduit and Mummy's dust both cost one feat. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I have enough spreadsheets at my job. My fun time I play simple. If it is simpler and more fun to play a cast which summons, and I can help my friends I'll do it. The more restrictive this feat (which exists to stop a gap in a class and provides an alternatives) is by requiring several feats to work the less likely it will be used.

You know there are cleric paths that disable summoning? And for them, EA is actually just a strict upgrade(mostly)?

Even then, there is nothing saying that transmutation would be required by this proposed update. It improves your EA, if you have it, but it's not strong enough on its own to make it essential for the build to function.

It still will give AC. It still gives damage on hit. It still gives regen. It still gives DR. It is functional regardless, and will still be taken whether anything else boosts it or not.

I play a seeker bow cleric. I don't get the damage from the arrows because how the game works. I also don't have a lot of spare feats.

I also cannot use most of the epic feats clerics can use: mummy's dust, planner conduit, epic dragon knight.

It still won't be worth it for me to try to build an entire class around taking a bonus feat.